Help ammonia/ nitrate spike in sw

[platytudes]

Im really trying to not give up on this saltwater tank. I enjoy it. I know there is so much to learn.

The thing is, you are not just keeping a saltwater tank - you are basically keeping a nano reef, whether you decide to eventually get corals or not. 20 gallons is just so tiny! I couldn't imagine starting out a saltwater tank with this volume. It's challenging even with freshwater.

Live rock only helps, it doesn't hurt, except it needs to cure. The most superficial read will tell you this, but it sounds like you are relying on the extremely limited help you can find locally. Please - don't do this. Read all you can, start with simple websites like these:
http://saltaquarium.about.com

Is there any way that you could perhaps switch out your 55 gallon FW tank with your 20 gallon SW tank? I just think it would be so much easier to keep a 55 gallon FOWLR (fish only with live rock) tank than a 20 gallon tank. FW tanks are much more forgiving.

[laurel]

I took my filefish out he wasn't acting right. Took him to petstore. Better in her tank then mine right now. Its probably to late. I shouldn't have got the live rock. My tank had cycled and was ready for fish. I have only had the live rock for 3 weeks. I don't want the rock, i didn't understand about live rock and the girl that sold it to me sure didn't give me info. She just wanted a sale. I don't want a reef system I just want to have my tank with a few fish to enjoy. My ph is down. I used dried tree leaves and turned out the light for the day. tonight it was almost normal. My ammonia in down some more. But nitrate is still the same. My salt is at 30. I did another water change.

[Lyvea]

Please don't let the live rock scare you off. Here's how it works, in short:

The rock is very porous, lots of little holes everywhere, kind of like a sponge. This provides a huge area for bacteria to grow and reproduce. The bacteria is what helps take ammonia and process it down into nitrates, which are harmless to fish as long as the level stays below 20ppm. It also provides shelter for what I call little bugs Copepods, amphipods, and other things that fish love to eat. You also usually see some kinds of sponges and filter feeding organisms like tiny little fan worms that help to keep the water clean, but look pretty too.

If the rock is already in the tank and has been for a few weeks, the cycle is already started. You might just leave it there for a couple weeks until the cycle is complete. I know you took your fish back to the petstore, but just feed the tank like you do when it has fish in it. Also, be careful not to overfeed, since it helps contribute to the problems you're having now. I would probably be accused of underfeeding, but as long as my pygmy angel stays fat and happy, I figure I'm doing ok.

Seriously though, almost all saltwater tanks have live rock in them, and for good reason. It's a pain to cycle, especially since you didn't know it wasn't cured already, but stick with it. Patience really pays off with this kind of tank. Please let us know if you have more questions, and we'll keep getting you the info you need. That's what we're here for. You're doing better than a lot of people who start a marine tank on a whim! Hang in there!

[laurel]

cool site on file fish. hope mine doesn't die.
Normal is all you have there but the temp on my tank is 76 to 78. Do i need to have it warmer? Guess so.
I got the 20 gal before the 55. bought 55 from friend. Thought about changing 55 to sw but as much trouble im having not sure i want sw. I didn't take all of fish to the store. I still have gramma and featherduster.

[platytudes]

I shouldn't have got the live rock. My tank had cycled and was ready for fish. I have only had the live rock for 3 weeks. I don't want the rock, i didn't understand about live rock and the girl that sold it to me sure didn't give me info. She just wanted a sale.

Well, maybe she just wanted a sale, but as Lyvea said, live rock is what people use for filtration now. The old school undergravel with crushed coral, canister filters full of ceramic media and carbon...these things are outdated for a reason. Live rock works better, but it needs to go through the curing process. Which, if you were not expecting it, would be an unpleasant surprise.

"Fish only" tanks are actually a lot more work because what they usually are are big tanks of big, messy (but impressive) fish filtered by enormous filtration systems. A 20 gallon tank can't really be fish only, unless you are keeping small fish and invertebrates which put a tiny load on the system. You can't stock a SW tank like you do a FW tank...(more on this below)

Most people these days have live rock and a protein skimmer, with powerheads for extra flow. Sometimes a refugium (a separate tank connected to the main tank) which cultivates beneficial algae that sucks up the nutrients from the water. Even if you don't have a refugium, a protein skimmer works best in a sump, which again is a separate tank connected to the main one. They might make better "hang on the back" protein skimmers now than they used to, but these have a reputation of being inferior in quality and not doing such a great job.

Thought about changing 55 to sw but as much trouble im having not sure i want sw.

My thoughts exactly, in your case. If all you are wanting is a pretty tank to entertain the fish and customers, there are lots of freshwater options. African cichlids would do great in a 55 gallon tank, and you could switch the 20 gallon over to keep a small colorful fish like platies, cherry barbs, maybe even a dwarf gourami if you could find a healthy specimen.

Saltwater has far less dissolved oxygen than freshwater, so it cannot be stocked the same way. For freshwater, you might have heard the 1" of fish per gallon rule. This isn't very accurate - it really only applies to slender fish, not deep bodied ones. The same stocking rule of thumb for saltwater is 3" of fish per square foot of surface area. Big difference there!

Here's a link to some articles about FW vs. SW setups:
http://www.fishlore.com/saltwatervsfreshwater.htm
http://www.aquariumpros.com/articles/stockguide.shtml
I'm sure there is lots on the main wetwebmedia.com site about this, also.

Many people start with freshwater, get into saltwater and never look back. But things go a lot smoother if you are prepared up front for the increased cost and understand about the different equipment, and about live rock and how it functions.

[Enginnerd]

I haven't seen anything in here about the salinity of the tank. If it's too low or too high there could be a die off going on causing a spike in ammonia. If the water changes are being done with water that hasn't been premixed for 24 hrs prior to the change, this could also be causing large fluctuations in salinity, especially when being mixed by someone still learning how to do it. It seems odd to me that the tank was setup 3 months ago and we now have an ammonia spike....something could be causing this other than the original cycle. Over Feeding? Not mixing the water properly? I've also seen salt mixes give "false" trace Ammonia & Nitrite readings on newley mixed water when using tap water. I never could explain why chemically. However, it never showed up as Ammonia or Nitrite in the tank.

If the live rock had been in the store for a period of time (several weeks/a month) it was likely already cured. If it was a new shipment...then no..obviously it wasn't cured.

I think there might be something else going on here, other than an incomplete orginal cycle. What is the specific gravity of the water in the tank and how is it being measured? If you are measuring it with one of the plastic boxes with the floating arm, these are not know for their accuracy. Also if you are measuring the s.g. of the water within the first few minutes after being mixed, you will notice that it tends to increase if you leave it sit a few hours with a power head to mix it.

Just a few thoughts.

[Enginnerd]

Ok...I just saw that the salinity is posted as 30....I'll assume thats ppt. So the s.g should be in the 1.022-1.023 range which is fine for FOWLR tanks.

[Wetplants]

Wait, you brought the pH down? Why? 8.4 is good. Please don't give up! Everything that's been said here is good and true; just figure out the basics and success should follow. Especially RE the live rock; you said you jsut want a tank with a few fish to enjoy. Well, LR is just about necessary for all SW tanks. Even FO tanks.

[laurel]

This morning ,
ph 8.2
Ammonia 0 ppm
Nitrate 20 ppm
Nitrite .50 ppm
Salinity 28 ppt Yes I use a plastic hydrmeter.
I did a water change last night. Need alittle more salt

This morning my gramma was out swimming around and actually alittle social.
Yesterday she was hidding all freaked out.
I lowered the ph cuz everytime it starts going up,it keeps going up.
didn't want that to happen. It has happened before.

I call shop where I bought rock(out of town mom and pop shop), she said it was cured and to test tank daily cuz it will spike up for awhile and to do water changes if it does. What are the thoughts on that.
I haven't went to local petstore(mom and pop shop) to see if my file fish is still alive . I hope so.
I have come to far to give up now. Thanks you everyone for the support.

[laurel]

Well my file fish is still alive. He is acting better then he was yesterday. Hope it didn't do damage to him.